I suppose it is very difficult for us to quiet down after such a fiery session.
May we look to the Lord in prayer?
Our Heavenly Father, how we do praise and thank Thee that we can come together again this afternoon. We do worship Thee because Thou art doing such a great work, and Thou dost call us to work together with Thee.
And we do pray that Thou wilt clarify for us any confusion or misunderstanding that we have. We pray that Thou wilt bring us not only to understand, but also to really be functioning, living, participating fellow workers of Thine and of one another.
So we just commit this time into Thy hands and pray for the spirit of wisdom and understanding, in the name of our Lord Jesus. Amen.
I think, first of all, I have to clarify a point. What I mentioned yesterday about the work that is God’s work—the work of God—I do not have anything in mind as to a recognized, organized sort of work.
What I mean is, God has a work to do, and He is doing that. As He does that work, He calls many to join in the work that He is doing. In other words, what I am presenting is more of a spiritual, general picture. I am not thinking in terms of how you join the work, or things like that.
So I think this is a point that I would like to clarify, because even if you are not formally joined to a work, yet you still can be in God’s work. It is not necessarily that you have to join a work in order to be in God’s work.
Sometimes you may join a work and you are not in God’s work. But you may not join a work, and yet you can really, spiritually, be in the work of God. So I think this is a point I would like to clarify before I go on.
Now, there are a number of questions here. Some questions I feel probably we should go into; other questions are not very essential for our consideration. So I will just go on and read a question, and wait for your help to answer these questions, especially from the two brothers here. We will see as we go on.
You quoted the Scriptures that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers are workers. Do these ones develop their gift in the church, or are there times that these ones who show promise are trained and developed in the work by a proven worker?
Let me read again. I think it is a good question.
You quoted the Scriptures that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers are all workers. Do these ones develop their gift in the church, or are there times that these ones who show promise are trained and developed in the work by a proven worker?
A Brother: I think that if the church were in its normal state, a brother or a sister whom God was raising up to be a worker would be trained in the church and develop their gifts in the church. Do not forget that workers are part of the church too.
These workers in the church perhaps would notice the gifts and talents of these young men and women and give them some training in the context of the church. I think perhaps many of us see that as the normal that God is trying to recover in this day.
That is why we emphasize that, when we see a brother or a sister who obviously has some gifting from God, if they can really learn church life, then they will be saved.
Now, the question as to whether a worker should take them as an alternative really implies that the church is not being the church. If a worker has to take somebody out over here to train them, then it is saying that the church is such that they cannot be trained there. I would hope that contradiction in our context would not be the case.
Now, of course, a lot of what is considered training today is when a young man or woman goes off to a school to learn. I have a few hesitations with that, but I think Stephen really ought to answer this question a little bit more.
My hesitations are really twofold. Number one, at a school—and I say this from personal experience, having been to a seminary for four years—you develop a mentality of a minister, one who leads. It is awfully hard once that happens.
Then when you graduate, you get a position. It is awfully hard to turn that down and say, “No, I am just going back to these people. I am going to be an electrician,” when instead you could be a full-time worker and the head of the church. It is very hard to overcome that sense.
And, of course, I think sometimes in certain schools there are problems with how they train you, both in theology and in practical work. Often you do not get the discipline of your personal life that is needed, and it produces many workers who lack in lifestyle.
Good. Thank you.
Now, we do believe that God gave to the church some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, and we call them workers. These four classes of people represent, really, God’s work.
As I said yesterday, there are many others who are involved in the work, but these four classes of people seem to represent the work.
Another thing I think we can emphasize is that, personally, I feel these people are called by the Lord in a special way. Generally, everyone is called to the work.
You know, like the parable in Matthew 20, you find a householder went out and, whoever he saw standing there idle, asked them to come in and work in the vineyard. So, in that sense, that call is a general call.
But I personally believe that these four classes of people not only receive the general call, but they really receive some specific calling from God. God does, in a specific way, call them into the ministry.
So Paul mentioned in 2 Corinthians 4, “having this ministry.” You know, there is a ministry called “this ministry.” It is the ministry of the word, and those who are engaged in this ministry have received a special call from God.
God especially sets them apart, appointing them by divine appointment into the work that God has called them to.
Now, not every worker or fellow worker is among these four classes of people. So I think this is something we need to be clear about. Many will be involved in God’s work, but there will be four classes of people who, as it were, represent God’s work. Therefore, they need a special calling from God to be such.
Now, the second point I would just re-emphasize is what our brother has already mentioned: the training, or the developing, of a worker.
It is true that when our Lord Jesus was on earth, out of all the disciples He chose twelve to be with Him. In other words, He put them under His personal training. But at that time, of course, you did not have the church yet, so the Lord Himself personally trained these people.
But when you go into the New Testament, in the book of Acts, aside from the original twelve apostles, of course Paul stands out. You find that Paul received a special calling from God. God appointed him to be a witness and a servant.
So he received a special calling from God, and probably we would think that Paul had never received any training in the church. He seems to be very original, in a sense.
But we have to remember the background. Number one, you find that Paul, being Saul the Pharisee, had a very good background in the Old Testament. He was not a person who knew nothing about the word of God. He was familiar with the word of God.
But unfortunately, he was blind. He read the word of God with colored spectacles—that is, with the tradition of the fathers. He misread the Bible, but he did have a good background in the Bible.
Number two, you find that after the Lord had saved him and called him, he went to Arabia for three years. There, I believe, he was restudying the word under the Lord. He had met Christ, so therefore he was studying the Bible in terms of Christ. He learned directly from the Lord.
But even so, you will find that he went to Jerusalem. He got too hot, and he had to be sent away. There he was in Cilicia, in Tarsus. We do not know how long—probably a few years—until Barnabas went out to find him and brought him to Antioch.
For a whole year, he served the Lord with Barnabas. Then in Acts 13, you will find that God raised up in the church in Antioch five prophets and teachers.
But among the five, Saul was listed last. You know, the order in the Bible is very meaningful. When the Spirit of God puts names down, or puts the order down, it is not just a careless listing. He lists it very carefully.
So here you find that even Paul, with such a background, in a sense was learning to serve with Barnabas—not under Barnabas, but with Barnabas and with the others. Yet he was the last one.
It was then that God separated Barnabas and Saul for the apostolic work. In the beginning, you find it was Barnabas and Saul, until later on the Holy Spirit changed the order and said, “Paul and Barnabas.”
So even with such a great apostle as Paul, you find that he still received some help and some training in the church, ministering together with the others whom God had raised up. He was not a person who was just so original that he had nothing to do with training or with other people.
Now, of course, Paul is an exception. I do believe that the rule in the New Testament of how a worker is raised up and developed is seen most clearly in Timothy.
Here was a young man, saved when Paul visited Derbe, Iconium, Lystra, and these places. After this young man was saved, he was in the church there.
While he was meeting with the brothers and sisters in the church there in Derbe and Iconium, gradually it was manifested that he had a gift—maybe of teaching—even though he was a young man.
But again, you find that he knew the sacred letters from his childhood. There was a background there. Because of that background, added to it his diligence, you find that gradually he was functioning as a member of the body of Christ.
You know, that is the wonderful thing: the church is the training ground for God’s workers. In the church, every member of the body functions.
Today, the problem is either that you have no opportunity to function in the church where you are—you are not given the opportunity because there is someone there who is in charge and takes care of all the spiritual things. They are all centered in one person, so the rest do not have a chance to function and to develop the gifts that God has given them.
Now, that is one extreme. The other extreme is that people do not push; they are just all passive. Maybe the opportunity is there, but they do not seize upon the opportunity. They do not function.
If they do not function, they will never be manifested by the Holy Spirit. A person who is to be manifested by the Holy Spirit has to function first.
So I do believe that when God’s people are together in the local church, this is the place where all the members of the body function. As they function, gradually those whom God would raise up as future workers will be manifested locally first.
Locally, Timothy, as he was functioning, may have been exhorting, encouraging, or expounding the word of God. The brothers and sisters were edified and really helped. Probably some older people encouraged this young man to do more of it, and gradually he developed.
Then, after a while, you find Paul came to Derbe and Iconium. This young man was recommended by the church there: here was a young man who seemed to have potential, and he had already proven himself in the local church.
Paul took him with him and helped to develop whatever God had already invested in this young man. So I do believe that a worker—by “worker” there probably more in the sense of these four classes of people—is developed in this way: first, in the assembly, in the local church.
You know, the problem today is—I do not know how you feel, but that is how I feel—usually in a revival meeting or in a conference of some sort, when people are fired up, there will be a call for workers, saying, “Well, who wants to present himself, offer himself, to serve God?”
In that sense, it does not mean generally that we offer ourselves to God, but more in the sense of being one of the four classes of people. That is the mentality today. So people hear the call, they respond, and they feel that now they are called. They have already responded, so what should they do?
The quickest way, of course, is to go to a seminary or Bible school to be prepared. You know, that, I think, is the traditional mentality. In a sense, I feel that it is not really in accordance with the word of God.
To me, I feel that if we can function in the church, do not bother about calling this or that. Just be simple and serve in the local assembly. According to the measure that God has given to you, do not strike very high at the very beginning.
“I am called to be a pastor; therefore, I have to be a pastor and nothing else.” “I am called to be an evangelist, so unless I stand up and three thousand get saved, I will never open my mouth.” You know, do not strike too high. Be very practical.
Do not bother about calling. Do not bother about calling. That will come.
Just begin as a simple brother or a simple sister, and be faithful in the little thing that God has given you. As you are faithfully serving, you will find gradually that the gift or gifts God has given you begin to develop.
As they begin to develop, a ministry begins to develop. Probably, to a certain point, you will hear the call, and God will say, “Now it is time for you to be more involved.” You will have the confirmation from the church. The whole church will respond and say, “God has really raised this man up.”
I feel that is much safer than to have a kind of calling and try to fit in with a calling. It is a little bit artificial. Why not just start until you come to a point where, when the calling comes, there is already manifestation and also confirmation from the church?
I think probably with Timothy that was the case. If it is the will of God that you should enter into a wider field of service, I think it would be very good if you worked together with some more experienced worker instead of launching out all by yourself. That would be a good thing, because there are many lessons that we need to learn.
Of course, sometimes some people say, “Well, where can I find an older worker that I can work together with?” Now, this is something that God has to sovereignly arrange. You cannot do it in a mechanical way of human arrangement—putting yourself under a certain one—but God has to form that kind of relationship.
The second question, I think, should be reserved for our brother Ernie in his session, because it has to do with elders.
Elders seem to need gifting to accompany the office they hold, such as prophetic ministry, a pastor’s heart, an evangelistic burden, and the ability to teach, in order for a church to be strong. How do we know if a person should be an elder or a worker if they show such gifts?
First of all, the qualification for an elder is more spirituality than ability. I think this is very clear in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus. As you read through that list—and again, it is not an exhaustive list; it is just an illustrative list—you will find that of all the things listed, they are more related to spirituality than to ability.
So, to be an elder, the first thing is character. The first thing is spirituality.
But it does not mean that someone who has absolutely no ability can be an elder, because in the list at least you can find two items that seem to have something to do with ability.
One is that a person has to know how to rule his own house before he can rule the house of God. Now, that is ability. Another thing is that he must be apt to teach.
But “apt to teach,” to me, does not mean necessarily that he is a teacher. In other places in the Scriptures, you find that some elders have a teaching ministry, and if an elder has a teaching ministry, he shall receive double honor.
So it proves that not all elders have a teaching ministry, but they have the tendency or the ability to counsel—in that sense, not in the sense of teaching publicly, but more in the sense that, because of their knowledge of the Lord, their understanding, their spiritual stature, and some discernment, they are able to teach people, whether in public or perhaps in private counseling.
So these are related to ability. Now, whether an elder must have prophetic ministry or not, I do not know. It can be, but it is not necessary. An elder can be a prophet; it is possible, but it is not necessary.
But an elder must have a pastor’s heart. If you read 1 Peter 5, you will find that elders are also shepherds. They shepherd the flock.
Now, pastor in the Greek original simply means shepherd. Pastor and shepherd are one word. Pastoring is really shepherding. So an elder has to have a shepherd’s heart.
Now, whether he is functioning as a shepherd—here, I think, you have to distinguish. In Ephesians 4, you find that these four classes of people are related to the work. But in 1 Peter 5, when it mentions that the elders shepherd the flock, it is more related to the church.
So actually you have two kinds of shepherds. One kind of shepherd is one of the four classes of workers: shepherds and teachers. The other kind of shepherd is the elders in the local church. They are shepherds.
Today, I am afraid we use the word shepherd in a very general way. To me, I feel probably we have extended it too far. We hear of anybody shepherding a few people and things like that, but really, you cannot use that word in that way.
Strictly speaking, in the New Testament, you find the word shepherd is only used either for one class in the work or for the elders of the church. So surely an elder has to have a shepherd’s heart.
Now, an elder can be an evangelist. There is no reason why he cannot be an evangelist, but not necessarily.
Now, for a church to be strong, how do we know if a person should be an elder or a worker? The only difference between an elder and a worker is this: an elder is for the local assembly.
In other words, he will stay there. He will be with the people all the time. It does not mean that he cannot go out sometimes, but you will find that his responsibility is actually local.
Now, a worker, so-called, is involved in a work, and as I mentioned yesterday, his work is regional. The scope is larger than a local assembly.
So whether that person should be an elder or a worker really depends on how the Lord will use him. If the Lord is calling him and using him locally, then he can be an elder there. Or if the Lord is calling him for a wider field of work, more than just one local assembly, then he can be a worker.
So it depends on how the Lord will use that kind of person. I do not know if that is all right. Ernie, will you please add something to it?
A Brother: I think that is very good.
I think here is a question that has something to do with the same area: How is it possible for a brother or sister to join in the work without first being a functional, living, and contributing member of a local assembly?
It is not possible. It is not possible. You have to be a living, functioning, contributing member of the local assembly before you can really be involved in the work.
Is not this the proving ground of submission and service that must precede the work? That is true. The local church is the training ground; it is the training.
Of course, when you really get into the work, there is still much more to learn. But the basic things you have to learn in the local assembly.
Now, just to use an illustration, John Mark is an illustration. It seems that John Mark had not learned in the church in Jerusalem. He was a person who was sheltered.
Because of this, when he was taken into the work, he could not make it. He could not make it.
So I think that is the good thing: if a person will first be proven in the local assembly, he has to learn submission. That is very true.
You find that was a problem with John Mark in the matter of submission. He could submit to Barnabas, but not to Paul. So he had to go back.
Probably Peter did help him in that area, and later on, of course, Barnabas helped him. Finally Paul said, “John Mark is useful in the ministry.” So I do think that is correct. That is very important.
This question is: “You say that if a worker has a job, his job is for the work; and if they have a family, their family is for the work. Would you elaborate on this?”
Now, again, I will say there is a difference here. When you think of the work in general, that is God’s work, you may just stay in one place. You are a member of the local church, but at the same time you are serving God in the work.
By that I mean, generally speaking, God is doing a work, and part of His work is that He is building His church. That is the work of God today.
Because you see the vision and because you really give yourself one hundred percent to it, even though you are a local brother or a local sister and are locally involved in the building up of the church there, at the same time you may be considered as participating in the work of God—that is, working with God.
Now, if this is the case, then if it is God’s will that you should have a job, first of all, you do not look at the job as your real profession. It is your avocation, not your vocation. Your vocation is serving the Lord.
But in serving the Lord, it may be the will of God that you should have a job. So that job is an avocation. You use that job to support yourself, to support your family, to help others, and to enable you to serve God in the way that He has ordained or opened up for you.
So, in that sense, when you are doing a job, you are doing it for the work. Let me use an illustration; probably that is better.
For instance, Aquila and Priscilla were tentmakers. You find that they made tents. That was their job. But no doubt Aquila and Priscilla were very much involved in God’s work.
They did not make that job the most important thing in their lives. The work of God was their priority.
Because of this, sometimes you find Priscilla and Aquila would move to another place. When they arrived at another place, they still carried on their job, but the reason they moved was related to the work of God.
So their job was for the work. Their job was not just for themselves; their job was for the work.
Or, to use another illustration, suppose you are a businessman and you are involved in business. Now, it is the will of God that you should be involved in business, but your business is for God’s work.
In what sense? Whatever God has given to you—the profit that you receive from the business—you channel to the work of God. That is a fellow worker in God’s work. So you find that a job is for the work.
This is when we think of a local situation. Now, if you think of being involved in a work in a specific way, like Paul, Timothy, and other people who were involved in the work in a specific way, then, of course, like Paul, you find that sometimes, when the need was there, he worked with his hands, and other times he did not work at all.
In Philippi, you find that he did not work. Even when he was in Achaia, you find that the people in Philippi were still sending gifts to him to support him in the work. But in Corinth he worked with his own hands. In Ephesus he worked with his own hands.
So you find that the job he was doing was for the work. If it would help the work, he would do it. If it interfered with the work, then it should not be done.
Side two of “Responsibility in the Work” by Brother Stephen Kaung is of such poor quality that we are unable to amplify it to the degree that it would be discernible and understandable.
So we are sorry to lose the answers to the questions in the second portion of that Thursday afternoon session, 7/8/82. The cassette tape can just barely be heard.
If you want to try to hear the remainder of this question-and-answer period, you might order the tape and try to hear it for yourself. However, the current technology we are using is unable to reproduce it at an adequate volume for online purposes.
We apologize. God bless, and may the Lord answer all your questions.
If you wish to order the tape, it is SK 4036.