Front as much as possible. This will be a real help.
Thank you.
May we have a word of prayer first?
O heavenly Father, we do gather here this afternoon in the name of Thy Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. And we fully believe Thy presence is with us. We remember Thy Word, which says that in Thy presence there is fullness of joy and pleasures forevermore. So we do enjoy ourselves in Thy presence.
We do praise and thank Thee that Thou art light, and indeed there is no darkness. So, as we come to Thee, we just pray that the light of Thy countenance will shine upon us and drive away any darkness, shadow, or shade from us, that we may dwell and walk in daylight, as Thou art in the light; that we may have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all our sins.
We just commit this time into Thy hands. We acknowledge that Thou art the answer to all our questions. So we pray that, as we try to help one another with these questions, they may not be just questions answered outwardly, but questions answered by very life within us.
We ask in the name of our Lord Jesus. Amen.
I received a number of questions, but I have to say that they actually involve my two brothers, because some questions are concerned with leadership in the church and some questions are concerned with the ministry of the sisters. Of course, we understand that these three areas are so interrelated. You really cannot separate them. You can distinguish them, but you cannot separate them.
So I will need the help of our two brothers when questions in their areas are involved.
The questions really can be divided into three or four different types. The first type of question is concerning this matter of calling, actually. The second type of questions is concerning this matter of profession.
The third is really a matter of the relationship between the church and the work—the function in the church and the function in the work. Finally, some questions are concerned with interpretation of the Scripture.
So we will go through them as the Lord leads. After I read a question, I will try to answer it the best I can. After that, if any brother or sister has something to add or to correct me, please feel free to do so, because we really want our brothers and sisters to receive real help—not just to answer a question, but to receive real help. So that is our purpose.
The first question is: How can a person know what kind of work or leadership he is called for? Can he go by the burden in his heart or the gift he has?
Now, I personally do not believe that, after you are saved, you are immediately called into the work or into leadership. There may be some exceptions, like Saul, or Paul. The moment he was converted, he was called to serve. But even with Paul, you find the Lord did not tell him right away what his work would be. He had to go to Damascus to be told by another brother.
Now, in principle, it simply means that we do not really know our calling until we receive not only direction from the Head, but fellowship from the Body. Even after Paul knew what his calling was, he did not start out immediately, as it were, but he received training before the Lord, and even with an older brother.
So, to me, I feel that in this matter of work and leadership, it is true, in a very general sense, we are all called to come. As I said yesterday, we are all called to follow, and we are all called to serve. That is true. But as to what kind of work, and in what capacity you are called, it is to be gradually developed.
I personally feel that probably after you are saved, and you really give yourself to the Lord to be discipled by the Lord, and you really respond to the call to serve the Lord, in the beginning you will not be involved in the work, so called. Rather, you will be involved with the church.
You do not start out into the work right away. You need to be trained for the work in the church.
So I would say, in the beginning, you do not know what kind of work God has called you to. And especially, no one is called to leadership right away. Leadership needs to be manifested, proven, tested, and proven.
So we are called, as it were, to function in the Body as members. Now, if we do not function as members in the Body, the call to the work will never come.
I think the whole modern concept of people saying, “I am called to the work,” is mistaken. Now, as a matter of fact, that is what happened to me. When I was first saved, I was saved among the holiness people.
At that time, the custom was that the last day of the conference was a day of consecration. By consecration, it meant a call to the work. You consecrated yourself to be a missionary, a teacher, a Bible woman—and that was what consecration was.
That was back in 1930, and that was the way people believed. That was the way consecration was preached, and that was the way consecration was accepted. So thank God, during that conference, He saved me, and I was all in love with the Lord.
So on the last day, when the preacher began to preach on consecration, there was a huge map of China hanging on the wall behind him. The preacher said, “Now, if you really love the Lord, you shall consecrate yourself and go to the work. You can choose wherever you want to go. You just come up to the platform, point your finger on that place, and that is where you will go to serve the Lord.”
Now, I was only fifteen at that time, and I was newly saved. I was all on fire for the Lord. So I thought to myself, “Surely I will serve Him, and I must go to the furthest place, the most difficult place, to serve Him—to prove my love to the Lord.” There was a sense of heroism.
So I walked up to the platform and pointed my finger to Mongolia, because to a Chinese, Mongolia is the end of the world.
I was very serious about it. For a whole year, I prayed for Mongolia every day. I tried to get hold of every piece of literature on Mongolia and study it. I even thought I should go to Peking because that was closer to Mongolia, and maybe I could find someone who would teach me the language. I was serious about it.
But I moved too fast.
It was not until the Lord began to put me in a situation to be with brothers and sisters, and there to learn to function as a member in the Body of Christ.
Even after two years, when the Lord really called me into the work, I really did not know how to serve. There was much to learn.
So I think, in this matter of what kind of work or leadership I am called into, I would say you do not have that in the beginning. What you will have is wherever the Lord puts you, with whichever brothers and sisters. This is the place where you should learn to serve.
Never think about work as such, or leadership as such. Whether you are material for leadership, or whether you are material for the work of God in a larger area, has to be tested and proven.
The modern sense is that once a person is saved, he consecrates himself and is called to the work. Now, how are you going to get into the work? You bypass the whole training ground of the church and try to step immediately into the work.
The only thing to do, then, is to go to a Bible school or a theological seminary to be trained. After you finish the training, you are fully qualified for the work. Unfortunately, you find that the mortality rate of missionaries during the first year has been very high.
So I would suggest: if you have come to the Lord, can you really follow Him? No doubt there will be a desire within you to serve Him. Then learn to serve in the local assembly where you are.
Now, it is true, when you are trying to serve, burden and gift are all related. What kind of service will you do in the church? How will you function as a member of the Body of Christ?
Probably very few people know what member in the Body they are. I do not know whether, when I was born, my hand knew that it was a hand.
Probably, in the beginning, you do not know which member of the Body you are. Now, if you do not know which member of the Body you are, how can you function? What will be your work? It becomes a problem.
And yet, it is not a problem. Why? Because even though, in the beginning, you do not even know what member of the Body you are, when life begins to grow, the consciousness of being that member increases.
It may seem to you to come by chance, but it comes. Sometimes it is just in the meeting, in the gathering, and somehow, as the question says, “Can he go by the burden in his heart?” Now, that is one way.
Sometimes you find that the Lord has put a burden in your heart. Suppose, in a meeting, someone is absent, and nobody seems to pay any attention to it. Somehow, the Lord exercises your heart, and you pay attention to that. You wonder where that brother or sister is.
Because you are burdened with it, you try to go and visit that brother or sister, to see whether anything has happened or whether there is anything that you can help with. Now, it begins in such a way.
As you continue doing the burden that the Lord has put within your heart, the burden increases. If you are discharging the burden and find that the anointing of the Lord is with you, you find that the brothers and sisters are helped.
Now, gradually it becomes evident that this is your ministry. This is the work that you have to do in the church.
Now, this has something to do with gift too, because if you are not gifted in that area, then when you are trying to supply a need, you will find that you cannot do it, because you were not given a gift to do it.
Probably my ears would very much like to see, but they just do not see. They only hear. So this has something to do with it too, but this again has to be tested and developed.
If God makes you an eye, the Holy Spirit gives you the gift of seeing. If God makes you a hand, then the Holy Spirit will manifest Himself with the gift of holding. But in the beginning, you may not know it.
It may take a little while for the eye to be able to see, and it may take longer for the hand to be able to hold things. You look at a baby and you know it. Even when the baby starts to walk, he does not walk on his two feet. He walks on all fours, because he does not know that the hand is not for walking.
So he tries to crawl. But then suddenly, one day, he discovers that without the help of his hands, he can walk faster. When that happens, of course, the hands are no longer doing the work of walking.
So, in this matter of what function, what service, or what gift, I do not think we need to be too much concerned about them. Some people are very much concerned. They want to know which part of the Body of Christ they are. Without knowing which member they are, they will not function at all.
Or they have to know what gift they have. If they do not know the gift they have, then what is the sense of doing anything? If that is the attitude you take, you will be sitting there and doing nothing.
It is just very natural. If you love the Lord, if you are among God’s people, naturally you have the desire to serve, and naturally the Lord will incline your heart and give you some burden. You will be exercised in a certain way, and when you are trying to fulfill it, you will find the Lord is with you and people are helped.
Then continue in it. If you try to do it and find that it is impossible, and people are not only not helped but seem to be hindered, then do not do it. Sometimes you may not be able to judge very well. Be humble enough to ask some brothers and sisters, “How do they feel about it?”
So that we may be honest with one another and really help one another to come to our rightful place.
Do not try to start out big. Try to begin small. Do not think that if you do not speak for an hour, you will not open your mouth. Why do you not first start by coming and cleaning the place?
The seven men chosen to serve the tables were so faithful in serving the tables that God gave them increase. You find what an increase they had. Think of Stephen. Think of Philip.
So I would say, you do not need to be too concerned about what kind of work or leadership God has called you to. You do not even need to try to analyze yourself very much. Just be supernaturally natural.
Be in the Body with your brothers and sisters, and do whatever you feel prompted by the Holy Spirit. Check with your brothers and sisters. Be faithful in small things, and as you are faithful in small things, gradually you will find the Lord will give you more to be responsible for.
Maybe in the beginning it is in the locality. For instance, like Timothy. After he was saved, he was in Derbe, and there he was with the brothers. He began to serve in a small way in the local assemblies in Derbe and Iconium.
As he served faithfully with the gift God had given him—he was a teacher—he began to teach, even though he was young. I do not believe that, in the beginning, he taught for a whole hour. Probably, in the beginning, he just shared something for two minutes, three minutes, or five minutes.
Gradually, you find it became evident that whenever he began to teach, people were really helped. So finally, when Paul came, the brothers told Paul, “Here was a young man whom the Lord really used in teaching.” So Paul took him with him, in order that he might enter into a wider work. Now, this is the way that it should come.
I do not know if I have answered this question. If anybody has something to say about it, or to make it clear, feel free to do so. We are a family.
I cannot hear you. You say it too far back. I will repeat the question: How can a person know what kind of work or leadership he is called for? Can he go by the burden in his heart or the gift he has?
Now, the second question is this: To maintain unity in the church, what should leaders do when they have differences in interpretations of the Word of God? Both interpretations are relevant with Bible verses. Should the more humble ones submit?
Well, I think it is evident that if there is disunity among the leaders, there is bound to be disunity in the church. For the church to be built, there must be unity in the leadership.
Now, in the church, we find that elders are always in plurality. In other words, it is collective leadership, not just one man, because Christ is the Head. He is not represented by anyone there, lest one man think that he is Christ. He is the Head.
So in the church, you find that leadership is always collective: elders. Now, it does not mean that if there are five elders, those five elders are entirely equal. Even among the elders, some may have a greater measure of Christ, while others have less of the measure of Christ.
They have to submit to one another. Maybe those who have the greater measure of Christ, because Christ is manifested more, the younger will submit to the older more often—not always, but more often. But the older has to submit to the younger if Christ is manifested in the younger.
So you find that it is collective leadership. Because it is collective leadership, there must be unity. If they do not agree, they will bring the disagreement to the whole church, and the whole church will be divided. So it is very important that the leadership must be one.
If there are differences—and there usually are—what should they do? Especially in this matter of interpretation, it is true that you can interpret anything you want to and find some Bible verses to support you.
So, actually, if you can support your interpretation with a few Bible verses, it does not guarantee that this is the interpretation.
Whenever there are different interpretations of the Word of God among the leadership, the one thing the leaders should do is bring it to the Lord and seek the face of the Lord until the Lord shows them the same understanding before they communicate it in the church.
If it is an interpretation you hold and the other brothers do not agree with it, do not communicate it. Keep it to yourself.
When the Word is presented to the church, it should be presented as light, not in the sense that this is the final interpretation. Interpretation may change as the Lord gives more light. We have to be open and humble enough to accept correction.
But at least you will find that there will not be a kind of sowing seeds of dissension, seeds of division, among God’s people.
So I would say, if there are differences in the leadership concerning interpretation, it is better to hold these various interpretations in private until the Lord really brings the brothers together and gives them more or less the same sense, the same understanding, before you communicate it to the whole church.
That will save the church, especially those who are young, from being confused and excited, so that unity in the church may be kept.
Here is another question: There is a real big gap between where I am and what I feel the Lord has called me to. At times, I find this gap very discouraging, and it creates many doubts. Would you speak to this situation?
I can only address this situation in a very general way, because I do not know the person. I do not know what transpires in him between him and the Lord. So I dare not try to generalize everything and say, “This is the solution.”
But I can only do it in a very general way. I think it is a real problem when people feel that they are called to do something, and yet, when they look at themselves, maybe even after several years, they find that they are far from being able to fulfill that calling. I understand that it is a real sense of letdown and discouragement.
The problem is that, in our zeal and in our love for the Lord, we tend to feel called to something which God has never called us to.
I am afraid that in ten cases, nine out of ten, you will feel called to something which God has never called you to.
I feel it is better—the sooner you are disillusioned, the better. Do not wait until you spend almost half of your lifetime. I have met people who felt called to be missionaries, and because of that they went to Bible school. They finished Bible school and went into the mission field.
After many years, they became disillusioned, and they began to see that the Lord had not called them into the work. It is a tragedy—a tragedy.
So I would be very careful about saying that God is calling me to this and calling me to that. As our brother said, if you are too sure of it, this may not be it. If you are really called, you will have many doubts.
Now, if you are really called by the Lord, His grace will be sufficient. He will equip you to fulfill your calling. Nobody can fulfill God’s calling. It is a divine calling. It is God’s work. No one can do God’s work, no matter how clever, capable, educated, or trained you are.
Only God can do His work. But if He has called you to do His work, He will give you sufficient grace, sufficient gift, and He will equip you to do the work. If the grace, the gift, and the equipment do not come, most likely you are not called to that work.
If you are really called and you are really seeking Him diligently, then you will find His grace will come to you. He will gradually equip you, and then all the training and all these things will be there.
So I feel that, in a very general way, this is what it is. Unless you may feel called and then are not faithful to the Lord. You may be called, and yet you are not diligent. You may be called, and yet refuse to accept discipline from the Lord.
If that is the case, you will never be able to fulfill your calling. You will be what you were five years ago, as you are today. So that is possible too.
But I would say, if you really seek the Lord diligently and accept His discipline, no doubt, if it is from Him, He will equip you.
Here is another question: Granting that those who are placed by God in a profession can be involved in the work, what advice can you give to those many brethren who yearn to be involved in the work, but whose jobs require their participation five days a week, fifty weeks a year? Practically speaking, are they not largely disqualified?
From the Word of God, I would say that profession and finance are not the criteria for being workers, fellow workers of God.
It is true: if we are involved in a profession and that profession occupies our time, it does create a problem if we feel that the Lord really wants us to be involved in the work. Now, may I put it in the opposite direction?
When I first entered into the work, we had a kind of misconception that in order to be involved in the work, you had to be full-time. If you were not full-time, you were not a worker. So we could not hold any job; we had to be full-time serving the Lord.
Let me tell you my own experience. When I became full-time, back in 1935, I was in Shanghai, working together with and under Brother Watchman Nee. This was the first time I had left home for so long. I lived in a room above the bookstore.
I was supposed to be a full-time worker, and there were hundreds of brothers and sisters in the assembly there—lots of needs. Surely you would think I would be busy from morning till night. But I had nothing to do.
I had so much time on my hands. Why? Because I could not supply the needs. I was full-time, but I had nothing to do.
I might speak on Sunday, but not always. It was either Brother Nee or myself during that year. The way he trained me was that he never told me when I was to speak. He always kept me in suspense.
On Sunday morning, the ministry time began at nine o’clock, and by seven-thirty I would receive a note from Brother Nee—only two words. Sometimes it said, “I speak.” At other times it said, “You speak.” If it said, “You speak,” I had to speak that morning.
He kept me that way for a whole year. I thank God for that training. It was nerve-racking, though. You had to be ready all the time.
But aside from that, I attended the meetings. What else could I do? As a matter of fact, even on Sunday when I was speaking, I was just twenty years old, just out from college.
Those brothers and sisters sitting there—I could see those spiritual sisters especially, who had started the work with Brother Nee—were sitting there listening to me. What could I give them? I had so little to share with them. But, thank God, they were very patient with me. They suffered along.
So my problem was that I had too much time on my hands and nothing to do. Fortunately, I loved to read, so I read lots of books. Nobody was after me. Nobody looked over my shoulder and said, “Now you must do this; you must do that.”
If it had not been for the mercy of God, I would have been completely spoiled. I would have been lazy, because I had nothing to do and nobody said, “You must do this or do that.”
So I personally feel that instead of saying, “Now, I feel God called me to the work; therefore, I cannot do any other things. I have to be full-time,” I would rather say: if you can serve God with your time fully occupied, one day God will manifest you.
One day, the so-called spiritual work—I have to use the word to make it clear, though actually there is no such thing as spiritual and secular—will become evident. Suppose you are in your secular job, a full-time secular job, and yet your love for the Lord, for lost people, and for His interests is so great that you are willing to discipline yourself, to sacrifice, even to sacrifice some sleep.
Then you can spend time with the Lord, and you can serve the Lord with whatever time you have. When the Lord begins to reveal to the brothers and sisters that here is one whom God has called, people will come to you for help. You will be helping many people, and gradually you will find that you just do not have the time to do both.
Now, if that is the case, drop the profession and be full-time—but not before that.
This is part of the training you have to go through. God never uses a person of leisure. God always uses a person who is very busily occupied. Even Saul—he was busily occupied in persecuting Christians.
So I do not see it as a problem. In one sense, it is difficult, but I do not see it as a problem. I see it as an opportunity. It is an opportunity for discipline. It is an opportunity to prove how much your heart is really in the Lord’s work.
If this can be proven, I believe the day will come when you have to leave the secular job and be fully involved in the so-called spiritual work. I think this will be much healthier than the common notion: “I am called; therefore, I cannot do anything. I cannot touch anything. If I touch anything, then I am violating my vow, violating my call.” I do not think that is true.
Here is another question. In the same vein, you spoke on the fact that the worker should at times take on a secular job, but only for the purpose of supporting the work and possibly fellow workers. Yet there is the reality of the requirement of a livelihood.
Should the worker who is very actively involved in the work give thought to secular work from the standpoint of livelihood, or is this an issue for which he should always look only to God?
I do not mean to say that every worker should sometimes take up some secular job. Some do; some never do. Even when Peter occasionally tried to go back to fishing, the Lord took him up. But Paul did work with his hands from time to time. So it is not a fixed thing.
I think what is important is that we make service to the Lord our occupation. Our occupation is to serve God. If we can serve Him better with a second job, take a second job. If taking a secular job will heavily affect the work of God that He has entrusted into our hands, then do not do it.
So it is a very flexible thing. Even with Paul, you find it was very flexible. Sometimes he worked with his hands; sometimes he did not. He did not work with his hands in Philippi. He did it in Corinth. He did it in Ephesus. We do not even see that he did it in Rome.
Actually, it depends on what can help the work more.
Now, in this matter of livelihood, one who is called by God to the work is employed by God. His employer is God. God pays his salary.
So if he is called by God to the work, he should look to the Lord to support him for his livelihood. Of course, the Lord will support him through God’s people.
Paul said that if you serve the Lord with the gospel, it is right for you to be supported by the people who have received the gospel through you. But remember, the relationship is not a direct relationship; it is an indirect one.
One who is called of the Lord to serve the Lord must look to the Lord for his support. The Lord will use His own people to support him. He does not look to the saints or to the church; he looks to God.
On the other hand, the church—the saints who have received the ministry—shall be responsible before God for the support of God’s servant. They are not responsible directly to the Lord’s servant to give him a stipend or a salary, a fixed salary, as if they are the employer.
No, their responsibility is toward God, and it is through God to the servant of the Lord. Now, that is the normal situation. But sometimes situations are not normal.
Suppose a worker of the Lord comes among God’s people, and God’s people neglect to support him. This is not a supposition or hypothesis. This is fact. As a matter of fact, one of my fellow workers starved to death, literally starved, because of the unfaithfulness of God’s people.
Could we also believe that if men fail, God cannot fail? He can send ravens, and He does, even though not always, because He wants to use His own people. That is the norm.
But still, if a worker is in a certain place and the believers do not take up their responsibility before the Lord to support him for his living, no worker can live without food. Man does not live by bread alone, but not by bread alone—you still need bread.
Now, if a worker is in that kind of situation, what should he do? Should he beg the brothers and sisters for support? That would dishonor his employer—God.
If he really feels the Lord wants him to be there, then I would say he should find a job to support himself. In doing that, it is really not for living. It seems as if he does it for living, but actually it is for the gospel’s sake, because he wants the gospel to be preached there in spite of the fact that the saints are unfaithful.
You do not go to the place where there is rich support. Oftentimes, in the richest places, you get the least support.
So it is only under that kind of circumstance that I would say, if the Lord really puts it on your heart that this is the place He wants you to serve, maybe for a time, then it is better to find a job for your livelihood. This will be honoring to the Lord, and this will help you to fulfill your mission.
So it is not completely ruled out. You can have a job sometimes.
Is it correct to say that a call to a greater-than-local work always comes after one has received a call to function on a local level and has proven it?
I would say yes. If we are not faithful in small things, God will not trust us with bigger things.
Question number three: Could one with a greater-than-local function function also in leadership at the local level? That is, could an apostle also be an elder?
Let me put it this way. When God’s people come together, in the beginning it takes some time for leadership to evolve. As our brother already mentioned, Paul did not appoint elders immediately after these people were saved.
He left them behind, let them meet together, and after some months—half a year, a year, or maybe more than a year—when he came back, then he appointed elders, because by that time leadership had already been manifested by the Holy Spirit.
So in the beginning, I would say this question does not exist. Whether a person has a larger-than-local function, or whether his function is local, as long as he is there, be with the brothers and sisters as one of the brothers or sisters, and function together with them.
Never mind whether he has a wider-than-local function or whether it is just a local function. As long as he is in that locality, function as one of the members of the Body there.
Now, if God has already given him a wider-than-local function, then of course, from time to time, the Lord may call him out. When he is called out, then he is functioning in a larger-than-local function. But when he is in the locality, he can function as one of the brothers there, or one of the sisters there.
You do not need to be concerned about this matter of leadership, apostleship, and so forth. But as the church begins to grow, sometimes circumstances arise.
For instance, Jerusalem. The church in Jerusalem began to grow: three thousand, five thousand, over ten thousand at least—brothers and sisters there. The church grew with such increase, and then you find elders being appointed in the church in Jerusalem.
As a matter of fact, you do not find when these elders were appointed, or how they were appointed. You cannot find it in the Book of Acts. The elders were in Jerusalem, but when were they appointed? How were they appointed? You cannot find it.
In the beginning, the twelve apostles did everything. Why? Because it was the work; the church had not come forth yet. It was still in the stage of the work. So the apostles did everything—not only ministering the Word, but even serving the people.
But in doing that, you find it became impossible; it became an obstacle. So gradually, the church had to come into the hands of the local people instead of remaining in the hands of the apostles. So you have the elders come up.
Now, because Jerusalem was not only a local assembly—it happened that the apostles resided in Jerusalem. They lived in Jerusalem, and out of Jerusalem the work went forth, from Jerusalem to all Judea and Samaria. The apostles would go out and return, go out and return.
Because of that, Jerusalem was not only a local church; it was also a work center. The local church’s responsibility was upon the elders. The work center’s responsibility was upon the apostles.
Because these two things happened to be in the same place, some of the apostles also became elders in the church in Jerusalem—not all of them. Of the twelve apostles, we know Peter and John. At least these two of the twelve were not only apostles; they were also elders.
When Peter wrote his letters, he said, “Fellow-elders.” When John wrote 2 John and 3 John, John wrote as an elder. So you find that it is possible in a church which is also the center of a work for some apostles to also become elders in the church.
In other words, they have two functions. When it is in the area of work, they are apostles. When it is in the area of the church, they are elders. But never mix them up—never mix them up.
But not all apostles are elders, nor are all elders apostles. So there is such a possibility. But you do not find that in the church in Antioch. Apostles never became elders there.
Paul was never an apostle and an elder. He was an apostle, but he was never an elder. Certainly, it is wrong if you find that in every local assembly there is an apostle who is also an elder. Certainly, it is not scriptural.
Now, this is a question of interpretation. In Ephesians 4:11, is the pastor, or shepherd, mentioned there primarily involved in the work or in the church? And what seems to be his major function?
Now, in Ephesians 4, God gave to the church four kinds of people: some apostles, some evangelists, and some pastors or shepherds and teachers. As a matter of fact, those who know Greek construction tell us that pastors or shepherds and teachers are one.
You do not find five classes of people. You find four classes of people. Shepherds and teachers, pastors and teachers, are one. Shepherd is more in the sense of personal counseling, guiding, and teaching. Teachers are more in the sense of public teaching.
So you find that these are just two sides of the same work. Whether it is counseling privately or teaching publicly, you find it is the same thing.
Now, this is very different from the pastor system in Christianity today. The pastor system comes from the Roman Catholic system of priesthood, and the Roman Catholic system of priesthood came from the Jewish system of priesthood.
So actually, you find the pastor system is not in the Scripture, but the Scripture does have pastors—pastors as men whom God has raised up as pastors and teachers. They do the work of counseling. They do the work of teaching the Word of God. God gives them such gifts.
So their main function is counseling, guiding, shepherding, keeping, and protecting, just like a shepherd does. Whatever is the work of a shepherd, that is what shepherding is. Then, of course, teachers teach the Word of God. These are the main functions.
Their function is not limited to the local assembly. In the local assembly, you have teachers. For instance, in the church in Antioch, in Acts 13, there were five prophets and teachers in the church in Antioch. Then God the Holy Spirit separated Barnabas and Saul to do the apostolic work.
So, in other words, you find that you will have prophets and teachers in the local assembly. But Ephesians 4, to my understanding, refers to teachers—pastors and teachers—who are extra-local, larger than local, not just limited to local function.
The only other place in the Scripture where shepherds are mentioned in the New Testament is not a noun; actually, it is a verb. That is in 1 Peter 5. Peter addressed his fellow elders and said, “Shepherd the flock of God.”
So you find the work of pastoring actually is done in the work by these men, pastors and teachers; in the local church, by the elders. The elders are also involved in the work of shepherding. So this is what you find in the Scripture.
If we are involved in local leadership, and find ourselves burdened in prayer for several other particular localities, as well as involved with gatherings in different localities, under what circumstances might the Lord be calling us into the work? How will we know if He is? Should there be a word or vision from the Lord, a sending out by the local brethren, or would it be more of a personal leading and witness?
Now, this shows us that you cannot separate the work from the church and the church from the work. They are distinguishable, but they cannot really be separated.
People who are involved in the leadership of a local assembly—their primary responsibility is to the flock in that locality. That is their primary responsibility.
But the Lord may burden them. I do not know whether He burdens the whole leadership or burdens a few in the leadership, but the Lord may burden them to pray for several other particular localities, and not only to pray for them, but sometimes even to go out and help them.
Suppose in this locality you have a testimony of the Lord, there is leadership there, and the Lord is blessing them. They are growing in the Lord. Then you find other localities, most likely in the near vicinity—though it may be possible for them to be in another country.
Most likely, it will be in the vicinity. There are other brothers and sisters there, and they are just beginning to meet together. Suddenly, they need your prayer, and sometimes you need to go out and help them.
Just as in the Book of Acts, you find what the church at Jerusalem did. When they heard that God was doing something in Samaria, you find two apostles went to Samaria. When they heard that the Lord was doing something in Antioch, you find they sent out Barnabas to go there and see what God was doing.
In other words, the concern is there because we are one. The prayer should be there, the burden should be there, and whatever help we can render should be rendered.
But whether this is considered as entering into the work is uncertain. In a general sense, we are all in the work. But in a specific sense, you may not be involved in the work. It may be just that God wants you to help those weaker assemblies.
After they are established, probably there would be no need for your going again. Your responsibility is still with the local assembly.
But it is possible—not the whole leadership. If the whole leadership goes, then you have to change leadership. Possibly among them there will be one or two, and as they are doing these things, the Lord begins to put His seal upon that one or two.
Not only will they go out to help those in the vicinity, but maybe it will be widened and widened and widened. Eventually they are called into the work. So this is very possible.
Should there be a word or vision from the Lord? I would say there must be a word. There must be a vision from the Lord. But the word or the vision may not be what you think.
In other words, you may not hear audibly, “So-and-so, I send you out.” Or you may not see a vision of the Macedonian calling you. You may not have that kind of word or vision.
But without a word from the Lord—the Lord speaking to you personally—you need that. You need a vision. You need to see what the Lord is after. You need that. That is certain.
Now, a sending out by the local brethren? Never. Never in the Scripture do you find the apostles sent out by a local assembly. They are sent out by the Holy Spirit.
The local assembly stands with them. The local assembly should certainly pray with them, go with them in spirit, and support them. But the local assembly never sends out God’s workers. Only God sends out His workers.
I think that is a fatal wound in the work of God today.
When God the Holy Spirit said, “Separate unto Me Barnabas and Saul,” the five prayed together, laid hands on the two, and they went out. In other words, the laying on of hands is not a sending. The laying on of hands is an identification.
“We identify with you. God has called you to the work. We identify ourselves with you. We are one with you.”
Would it be more of a personal leading and witness? I would say: you need a personal leading, and you need a confirmation from those who serve together with you. You have leadership there, there are other brothers there, and certainly it needs to be confirmed.
Our time is up, unfortunately. We have left all the questions for our two brothers, and they will not have a chance. I want him to answer this question, and you can answer them Saturday.
The question is: Brother has talked about responsibility in the Body of Christ. He said that if God has anointed you, you are responsible for expressing the life within you and not repressing it, not burying your talent. How do you know if God has anointed you? And how do you know if you are doing what God has asked you to do?
Sometimes I am clear about what the Lord seems to be saying, but I am too inhibited to say anything, as others disagree. I have run into this problem before, and instead of expressing the life within, I repress it for fear of offending. So I say nothing, and I am very discomfited inwardly because of it. I feel I am not functioning in the Body and have become useless to the Lord. What shall I do?
It is a good question. I am quite sure it finds an echo in a lot of hearts, if I go by the questions I am personally asked.
Well, very quickly and very simply, first of all, about anointing: how do you know if God has anointed you?
I must say that whereas in some spiritual experiences, you may not know at what point you entered in, there is a sense in which, by faith, people take a step. For instance, I know people who were converted, who literally coldly took a step in faith, and it was weeks and months before they knew that they were really born again. But they took that step of faith.
I know others who have taken a step over the question of being crucified with Christ. They really saw it, and in cold faith they committed themselves to the Lord and went forward. There was no great feeling.
But I have to say that in the matter of anointing, generally speaking, you know. Again, I must underline what Stephen has said: I do think temperament comes into this.
If a person is a very phlegmatic type of temperament—very level, very unemotional, never cries—I think it is possible to have an experience of anointing in which they might even wonder whether they have received that anointing. But I will tell you this: everybody else knows.
The one thing about anointing is that even if the person anointed does not know that they are anointed, everybody else knows it. People will go miles to hear an anointed servant of the Lord.
The reason is that it is the difference between night and day, between someone who can take things of God and speak about things of God, and someone whose ministry conveys the Lord Himself. It is the same in playing the piano, even in such a natural thing as playing the piano.
When there is an anointing, you meet the Lord through their playing. You are not just left with beautiful playing; actually, something is ministered to you. It is the same sometimes with singing.
I know people who sing, and they dazzle me with their ability to sing. I think they have beautiful voices, and that is what I am left with. But other people sing, and they leave me with the Lord. Something is ministered into my heart.
Now, that is the difference between something unanointed and someone anointed.
However, again, I would just like to say this. Jesus, as you know, was born of the Spirit. When He was thirty years of age, He was anointed with the Holy Spirit.
Generally speaking, anointing is a distinct experience that we enter into after having been saved. It is to do with service. It is to do with functioning.
If we look at the history of the church, we will discover that all the men whom God has used have all had a real experience. Stephen mentioned some the other day—I think it was yesterday—and I can listen for hours on this way. I find it so interesting because there is such a wide variety of experience, in the way that it happened.
But I must say this: I knew Billy Graham before he had his experience, and I could keep you in stitches of laughter over what happened before that experience.
I shall never forget Billy Graham preaching in London, in Westminster Chapel, and acting out the lions in the arena at Nîmes eating the Christians. You had never seen anything like it. He was rolling around on the ground fighting with lions.
In the end, we had an appeal, with soft blues-type music in the background and repeated appeals to come forward. When he came back two years later, you could hardly believe it was the same man.
He stood there with his Bible open, and it was the Word, the Word, the Word, the Word. When the appeal was given, there was no music. Very few went forward on those earlier occasions. I felt so sorry for him; I always wanted to go forward myself. I thought, “You have worked so hard, you poor man.” I really felt I wanted to go forward just to help him.
But the second time, there was no need. He never even appealed twice. The people poured forward.
Now, I think you see the difference. Later, he said that in that retreat of his, God had met him and knocked him out for nearly a whole day. He did not have to tell us. It was perfectly apparent that something had happened, whereby the Lord in him had been released in his ministry.
Before, it was Billy Graham. Now it was the Lord in Billy Graham. Do you understand? Now, this is so in other ways.
I would say that generally speaking, taking most temperaments, you know when you are anointed. This does not mean that you go down like a spiritual tent and know that you are anointed—not at all.
When the anointing has come upon a person, I think they become very humbled—really, I mean it. I think they become very humble, because the Lord allows things to come our way to keep us very, very humble.
The difference is that when we function, there is a divine ability that was not there before.
Now, what is the other part here? How do you know God has anointed you? How do you know if you are doing what God has asked you to do? Now, that is a little more difficult.
Sometimes, how do you know if you are doing what God has asked you to do? In some areas, we know very well. I know that the Lord told me to go back to my own people, so I know that I have to live in Israel and have to be an Israeli citizen, which I am.
I know that I had to do that because God spoke to me three times about it. So I know. There are other areas in which I know. There are other times when I do not know.
In the end, I have to take a step in faith and go forward. I am not absolutely one hundred percent sure that I should be involved in this meeting or this conference, but I believe that the Lord somehow has not said no, and so I will go forward in faith.
You know, I find sometimes that the Lord is more in those times than in some other times about which I am quite clear that He has directed. It is interesting, is it not?
I suppose this person is wondering if they have a function that they should be in. Well, I want to tell you something: your brothers and sisters have good horse sense, if you understand what I mean.
When it really comes to it, you will find the church, the leadership in the church, and the church itself will be more accurately able to tell you whether you are doing what God wants you to do or not.
There are a lot of people in the life of the church who are actually square pegs in round holes. They are trying to do things they have an idea that God has given them to do, and it is ridiculous. All of us would tell them that they are boring to a degree, or that what they do is always problem-producing, because they are square pegs in round holes.
Now, if they would only be humble, we could all say so. But we could also say, “You know what your gift is? It is that.” We could help one another in this way to find what really the Lord has given.
So I think, how do you know if you are doing it? Well, sometimes God clearly tells you. But always, the evidence that you are doing and functioning in the place where you ought to be is that the church is built up and blessed, and that people meet the Lord through your ministry—through your functioning, whatever it is.
Now, sometimes I am clear about what the Lord seems to be saying, but I am too inhibited to say anything lest others disagree. I have run into this problem before, and instead of expressing the life within, I repress it for fear of offending.
This is disgraceful. Disgraceful.
Why do I say it so harshly? Because you must understand that this is disobedience. We must not play with this kind of thing, pat you on the back, and say, “Very humble.” You are not being humble at all. You are being disobedient.
You have got to find the grace of God and the power of God.