We will repeat all the questions into the microphone, and then Stephen, who will be taking most of them, will come up and speak into the microphone.
Arlene, you were standing. You had my question. Well, that is good—you can ask it. You phrase it.
The basic question that came to me—and I know one or two of you had this thought on your heart—is this: when Stephen was sharing yesterday, he spoke about divine order. He said that before Pentecost, brothers and sisters were together and sharing together. But after Pentecost, Peter stood up with the eleven. Stephen said that, because it was more public, it was then the brothers, not the sisters.
Stephen, would you underline a little more of what you meant by that?
When the Holy Spirit came upon the 120, all the 120 began to speak in other tongues and magnify the Lord. When people gathered around them, both the men and the women among the 120 were there, magnifying the Lord and speaking of the great things of God.
Perhaps I should go back a little. When you read Acts 2, the Holy Spirit came upon the 120, and then the rumour began to spread and people began to come. It cannot be that they remained in that upper room, because that upper room could not accommodate three thousand people. Evidently, they moved from the upper room, possibly to Solomon’s Porch, because that would be a natural place for the people to gather.
At first, perhaps people gathered in small groups—here a group, there a group. It was very informal, and people were just coming. There you find the 120, both men and women, magnifying the Lord and speaking of the great things of God.
Then came the time when Peter and the eleven stood up and addressed the whole crowd. Immediately, the gathering changed from something rather informal into a more formal type of meeting. It was under that kind of atmosphere that Peter and the eleven stood up. The men began to take their place in such a public atmosphere.
The gift of God knows no partiality. The Holy Spirit came upon both the men and the women, and they all spoke in tongues.
Now, there are different interpretations concerning the tongues in Acts 2. Certainly, these were not unknown tongues, because when they spoke, people understood. Some say that the miracle was not in the tongues but in the hearing: they spoke, and different people heard in their own language. It was almost like simultaneous interpretation, but done by the Holy Spirit instead of by interpreters.
My own interpretation is that, because they were in groups, God gave different members of the 120 different languages. One might speak a language used in a particular region; another might speak a language used elsewhere. People from different backgrounds would naturally gather around the language that they understood. I personally feel that this is more logical, because otherwise it would be chaotic.
The Holy Spirit came upon all of them. They all received the gift, and they all functioned and ministered as the Holy Spirit directed. But then the atmosphere began to change from that which was rather informal into that which was more formal. This is the time when divine order becomes apparent.
Under that divine order, the men took a more prominent part and the women took a more supporting part. That is what I am trying to say.
The further question is this: if that is so, is it ever right in a more formal situation for a woman to teach? How does this relate to 1 Corinthians 14:34, concerning women being silent in the churches?
First of all, to understand 1 Corinthians 14, “Let the women keep silence,” you have to understand the whole book. You cannot explain that verse by itself, not even simply by that chapter. You must understand it in the light of the whole book of 1 Corinthians.
First Corinthians was written by Paul to the church in Corinth, and the nature of that letter is basically corrective. Paul wrote it to correct situations that had developed.
Paul was with the Corinthian believers for a year and six months. During that time, he taught them diligently, day and night most likely. Yet he evidently did not lay down rules and regulations governing their meetings. He did not tell them precisely how they should meet or whether sisters should speak.
If it were us, after people were saved and gathered together, the first thing we would do would be to lay down rules and regulations: “This is the way you shall meet.” That is natural; that is what we would do.
But, strange to say, for a year and six months Paul never said a word about how they should meet. Why? Because if, at the very beginning, you lay down rules and regulations, life will immediately be restricted.
Paul evidently just said, “Come together. Assemble together. Exhort one another, encourage one another, gather around the Lord.” That was it. There was no rule, no regulation, not even an imposed order.
In other words, the meetings of the saints were spontaneous and free. It was under that kind of atmosphere that life was able to develop and grow.
As they continued to meet together, gradually, as life began to grow, order came out of life. That is the difference between an organism and an organization.
An organization begins with man-made order. If you do not have a man-made order to start with, you will not get an organization. You must first have a system, let everybody know the system, and require everybody to follow it. Then the organization will run.
But an organism is very different. An organism is based on life, not a system. Yet there is order in life, and that order is manifested as life grows.
Divine order is not something that you lay down beforehand as a rule. Divine order is something that grows out of life.
That is the beauty of order. In the church in Corinth, Paul did not initially lay down rules. The Christians came together freely and spontaneously around the Lord, exhorting and ministering to one another for the building up of the body.
But as life began to grow, there ought to have been a consciousness within life that there was an order. If anyone neglected that consciousness, he was neglecting the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Unfortunately, this was evidently the case in Corinth. There were some very gifted sisters in the church. The word of God came to them, and they taught a great deal. Possibly they intimidated the brothers. The word began to come to the brothers also, but the sisters would not give way.
It was under that kind of situation that Paul said there was a divine order in the church. The brothers represent Christ; the sisters represent the church. The brothers should take a more leading and prominent part, and the sisters should take more of a supporting part.
That is the reason Paul says, “Let your women keep silence.” Life had grown to a certain degree, and it should be ordered so that growth might increase instead of becoming endangered and abnormal.
The word silence in 1 Corinthians 14 is used more than once.
The first use concerns speaking in tongues:
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the assembly;
and let him speak to himself, and to God.
— 1 Corinthians 14:28
The silence there is not only for women. It is a matter of divine order. It has nothing to do with the possession of a gift. The gift may be there, but if there is no interpretation, the church is not edified. Therefore, if one speaks in tongues and there is no interpretation, let him be silent and speak to God within his own heart.
The second use occurs in 1 Corinthians 14:30:
But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first keep silence.
Here is a prophet who is prophesying, and suddenly someone sitting there receives a revelation. The one prophesying must sit down and let the other give the revelation. Again, this is a matter of divine order, not a matter of gift.
Then the third use of silence concerns women:
Let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak;
but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
— 1 Corinthians 14:34
This also is a matter of divine order. Paul recognizes that the word of God did come to these women. They had gifts. But because it was in the church, and because there was an order in the church, if there were brothers to whom the word of God had also come, the sisters would voluntarily allow the brothers to speak.
This is not intended to put the sisters down. It should not be taken legalistically. If it is taken legalistically, it will create arrogance in the brothers and humiliation among the sisters. That should never happen.
It should be voluntary, even though Paul calls it a commandment of the Lord. It should come from within the spirit. If a sister has the spirit of Christ in her, she would rather see a brother speak in the church than have to speak because brothers do not speak.
Do not take this to mean: “Sisters, you cannot speak; you must be silent.” That is not the spirit behind it.
Do not, at the beginning, take a verse out of its context and apply it to a gathering. If you do that, the letter kills. Let life express itself spontaneously and freely, without restriction, until life grows to a certain degree and inwardly there is a recognition of order. If that order is not kept, life will suffer.
I do not know whether we will all take it that way, but I do feel that we should not take it legalistically. That is something we try to avoid.
If you can understand the principles that have been mentioned, and if you go through the New Testament and consider the ministry of the sisters, these questions should be resolved by going to the Lord and asking the Holy Spirit to apply these principles in your life.
It is dangerous to lay down rules and regulations and say, “This you can do; that you cannot do.” That would be most dangerous and damaging.
When brothers see sisters speaking and teaching in the church, they should not criticize them. They should go to the Lord and ask, “Lord, why is it? Where have we failed?”
In the house of God, the brothers ought to be the head, representing Christ. It is the head that speaks. But if the body is full of mouths and the head is silent, something is wrong. Something is wrong with the brothers.
If God cannot find brothers, God has to use sisters. There is nothing wrong with that. If the word of God has come to women alone, certainly the women should speak; otherwise, how can the church be edified?
The brothers should go to the Lord, humble themselves before the Lord, and take their place in the church. When the sisters see that God has raised up brothers who can speak the word and edify the church, how happy they should be. They can support and fulfill their part in the church instead of doing everything in the church.
That should be the spirit. That should be the atmosphere.
Another question is whether a sister can ever teach in a mixed gathering.
We struggled over this matter for many years. When we first began in China, God raised up some women to begin the work with Brother Nee. Four women in particular were very remarkable. Without these four women, the work could not have begun.
One was a great evangelist. She travelled around China, held large meetings, and many people were saved. She was the daughter of a mayor. When she trusted in the Lord, her father gave her scissors and asked her to commit suicide because it was considered a disgrace to the family. She left home, trained in a theological school, and God began to use her mightily as an evangelist.
Yet when she came to work with Brother Nee, she voluntarily stopped speaking in mixed gatherings.
Another sister was a great teacher. Before she was saved, she was an avowed atheist and a dean of a girls’ school. She burned Bibles when she found the girls had them. Yet she became ill, came to the Lord, and became a great teacher. Her Chinese writing was excellent.
When she joined Brother Nee, she stopped teaching in mixed gatherings. Two other sisters, one a conference speaker and another a gifted writer and assistant, also gave up public speaking when they came to work with him. From that day onward, they spoke only to sisters and led conferences for women.
I was a young man at that time. On Tuesday afternoons there was a sisters’ meeting, and these sisters taught. The brothers would sit on the stairway behind a wooden wall and listen.
Why? Because God had given these sisters teaching gifts. It would have been a loss if we had not benefited from them. But because we were, in a sense, narrowed or bound by law, neither would they teach us nor could we openly hear them.
Finally, we reconsidered the whole matter before the Lord. We came to an understanding, though we did not openly announce it. We discovered that there are two different kinds of meetings in Scripture.
One kind of meeting we call a church meeting. This is when brothers and sisters gather together as the church. Gifts are exercised. It is the kind of meeting described in 1 Corinthians 14.
The principle of this kind of meeting is mutuality. It is not one person ministering to a congregation; ministry comes out of the body. Everybody participates according to the grace God has given.
What is it then, brethren? When ye come together, each one hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
— 1 Corinthians 14:26
Breaking bread, prayer meetings, fellowship meetings, and meetings in which gifts are exercised are church meetings.
In a church meeting, when the church has grown to a certain degree, there is order. That order governs not only the sisters but the whole congregation. If someone speaks in a tongue and there is no interpretation, that person must be silent. If a prophet is speaking and another receives a revelation, the first should sit down.
Within that order, if the word of God comes to brothers, why not let the brothers speak? Give them an opportunity. The sisters seek to be in subjection, representing the church, for the church is always in subjection to Christ.
There is another kind of meeting, which we call a ministry meeting. This is a meeting in which people whom God has raised up as ministers of the word—prophets, evangelists, teachers, and pastors—minister for the perfecting of the saints.
This is not body ministry coming out of the body. Rather, it is ministry administered to the body. It is one-way rather than mutual. The minister ministers to the people, and such a meeting is basically a matter of gift.
If a sister has truly been raised up by God as a teacher, we feel that she may teach in such a meeting. Why would God give her the gift of teaching if it were limited only to women and children? The whole church should be edified.
If a sister is genuinely gifted by God, she can minister to the whole church with her gift. She should be allowed to do so, because it is not a church meeting in the sense described above; therefore, that particular order does not apply in the same way.
The one thing we feel is needed is that, when a sister ministers to the body with her gift, she should be under covering. A brother, or some brothers, should chair the meeting in order to cover and protect her.
If disagreement arises or a discipline matter comes up, the brothers should take responsibility for government and authority, because that is their responsibility. Under such covering, sisters gifted by God should not be restricted. Their gifts should be fully used for the building up of the church.
After we began to practice this, we found that the body was edified.
There is no rule and no regulation. There are only principles in Scripture. In different places, believers are at different degrees of development. We should not establish a rule that everybody must do the same thing. Rather, these principles may serve as a reference as you seek the Lord.
Every place should go to the Lord and seek Him concerning the whole matter.
Concerning 1 Corinthians 14:35:
And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home:
for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.
We must remember that this is not a question of gift; it is a question of order. It assumes that a sister may have the gift, but because of divine order she is willing to be silent.
Perhaps a brother is ministering the word, and a sister is not satisfied with what he has said. Perhaps she thinks she knows better, and perhaps she does. She begins to ask questions publicly and challenge the brother: “You have said something—now how about this?”
When such things happen, the spirit is damaged. The brother may have said something incomplete or even incorrect, but there is an order in the church. She should not publicly challenge the brother who is speaking.
Consider Apollos in Ephesus. He knew the Old Testament and knew something concerning Christ, but his understanding was incomplete. Priscilla heard him and immediately detected that something was lacking.
Did Priscilla interrupt Apollos while he was ministering? Did she publicly say, “Now what about that?” So far as knowledge was concerned, Priscilla had the knowledge. But if she had done that, it would have damaged Apollos, herself, and the whole church, because of divine order.
Priscilla was patient enough to listen to Apollos to the end. Then she spoke with her husband. I believe it was Aquila who invited Apollos to their home, where Priscilla could instruct him more accurately.
You see the beauty of it? Priscilla did not expose herself when she was not covered. She spoke with her husband, and together they invited Apollos into their house. Under the covering of Aquila, I believe Priscilla was the one who truly instructed Apollos.
Thank God, Apollos was humble enough to receive instruction from that sister. Apollos became a great teacher, and Priscilla had a helping hand in that process.
I had a similar experience. When I first joined the work with Brother Nee in Shanghai, I was twenty years old and knew very little—although I did not know that I knew very little.
Brother Nee would either speak on Sunday or ask me to speak. He never told me in advance. The meeting began at nine o’clock, and at seven-thirty he would send me a note with only two words: either, “You speak,” or, “I speak.” He kept me in suspense for a whole year. It was part of my training.
Sometimes he came late and sat behind the wall listening to me. But the sisters I mentioned were also sitting there. I do not know where I found the courage to minister the word before them, but I did.
I thank God for one sister who was faithful enough, from time to time, to point out where I had gone wrong. Sometimes she said, “What you did, there was no spirit.” At other times she said, “When you did that, the spirit was there.” I thanked the Lord for that because I did not know myself. I needed her help.
She was almost like a mother to me. She was much older, and I thank the Lord for the help she gave me.
If you have anything to ask, ask your husband at home. Whether you want to learn something or feel that a brother needs to learn something, do not challenge him publicly. This is the way I understand it.
The next question concerns brothers gathering before a meeting to pray and seek direction. Is it proper for sisters to be present?
This practice of brothers meeting before a meeting to seek direction from the Lord is a practice, not a rule. In some places it may be practiced; in other places it may not be practiced at all. There is perfect liberty and freedom in this.
If it is best for the church that brothers meet beforehand to seek direction from the Lord so that they may lead the meeting better, thank God for that. If people feel it is better simply to look to the Lord together as brothers and sisters at the moment, and it works, thank God for that too.
Do not copy one another. Seek the Lord, and whatever the Lord says to you in one place, do it in obedience to His guidance. After a while, it may change. Be willing to change, and do not make it into a fixed system.
One thing we try to avoid is creating a system, because once you create a system, it gradually degenerates into an organization.
Personally, I agree with this practice when a gathering becomes large. But when a congregation is small, I do not feel there is a need for it. It is more like a family. Brothers and sisters should be together, and they should begin the meeting together.
If there are only ten people, there is no reason why three brothers should go aside to seek the Lord while the sisters sit and wait. That is too formal. It smells like a system. It is no longer a family.
But when a company becomes larger—fifty, sixty, one hundred, or one hundred and fifty—there will be problems, because there are many different degrees of spiritual growth and understanding. Some are newly born; some have gone on with the Lord for some time.
Then leadership is needed. Without leadership in a large meeting, it can become chaotic. Everybody may do what he wants to do, and the whole meeting may become scattered.
In that setting, it is good for brothers—especially brothers who have a burden for the church—to come together and seek the Lord. A brother who has no burden for the church need not be part of such a meeting, because he may dilute the leadership.
Those who have learned from the Lord may be slow to speak, while those who have not been disciplined may be quick to come forward. Then it becomes awkward to say, “We do not feel that is the way.”
The brothers who meet beforehand should be genuinely concerned for the church. As they seek the Lord together, the Lord can reveal His mind concerning what He desires to do in the meeting.
This is a matter of leadership. Leadership for the whole church is an area God has given to the brothers. That does not mean sisters have no leadership at all; Scripture shows that sisters do have leadership. But leadership for the whole church is given to men.
If a sister is genuinely concerned about the meeting, her not attending that time does not mean that she should simply sit and chat. While the brothers are seeking the Lord, she can support them in prayer. She can minister to the brothers by praying that the Lord will give them direction, that they will not misunderstand, and that they will find the mind of the Lord so that the whole church may profit.
This is how we work together. Unfortunately, it is easy to say, “That is the responsibility of the brothers. We are not given that responsibility, so we have nothing to do with it.” If that spirit develops, the church is doomed.
Remember, it is a matter of divine order and cooperation. For the work to be done, you need both brothers and sisters. The brothers may take a more leading part, but without the supporting part of the sisters, they could never lead.
The sisters are as responsible for the church as the brothers. If responsibility is taken in a legalistic way, it becomes a matter of position rather than a matter of life.
If you have to be given a position before you can be responsible, you should not take that position.
But if you are not given a position and you take up the responsibility, very soon the position is yours.
The next question concerns a sister who has received something from the Lord during the week, has checked with the brothers, and has been encouraged to share it in the gathering. How can she share without it becoming teaching?
The restriction concerning speaking in the church is limited to teaching in an authoritative way.
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
— 1 Timothy 2:12
The teaching referred to there has something to do with authority—for instance, defining doctrine or giving authoritative interpretation of the word of God.
Suppose, during the week, the Lord gives you something as you read the Bible. He reveals something to you, it helps you greatly, and it opens some understanding. Or perhaps, as you walk with the Lord, He gives you an experience and you experience Him in a fresh way.
There is nothing against divine order if, in the church, you share the experience God has given to you. There is nothing against order if you share some word that the Lord has truly spoken to your heart.
You need only be careful not to teach in the sense of defining doctrine or giving an authoritative interpretation of the word of God.
There are two different kinds of teaching. One kind simply teaches what has already been taught and instructed. It is not something new or previously undiscovered; it is passing on what has been learned.
But God also raises up another kind of teacher whose work is to decide doctrine and interpretation. That kind of teaching is not in the realm of women.
Generally speaking, women are more of the heart and men are more of the mind. Physically and psychologically, God has made us in different ways for a purpose: through cooperation, His work may be done.
If it is something of the heart—something that has touched you as you read Scripture and that you desire to share with brothers and sisters—you can do it. If it is something of the mind in the sense of doctrine and interpretation, do not do it. God has given that to the brothers.
It would be a good thing to check with the brothers beforehand whether they feel that it is proper. If they feel it is proper, go ahead with boldness. They cover you. If something is wrong, it is their responsibility.
The final question concerns 1 Timothy 2:13-15:
For Adam was first formed, then Eve;
and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:
but she shall be saved through the childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.
To understand verse 15, we must go back to verses 13 and 14. Adam was formed first, then Eve. Adam was not deceived, but the woman, being deceived, fell into transgression.
Here, Eve was deceived because she acted according to her heart. Adam was not deceived because he acted deliberately. When he sinned, he knew what he was doing. In that sense, sin entered into the world through Adam, not Eve, because Adam sinned deliberately.
Again, this relates to divine order and God’s creation. Generally speaking, women are of the heart and men are of the mind. If you are of the heart, you can be deceived more easily than if you are of the mind.
But thank God: because women are of the heart, this is an area in which God has especially equipped them. This is an area in which God can use them.
Some commentators say that the woman in 1 Timothy 2:15 is Eve, and that “the childbearing” refers to Christ. After the woman sinned, God declared that the seed of the woman would bring salvation. According to this interpretation, she is preserved through the bearing of Christ.
That is one interpretation. It may be included, and it may even be basic. But I think the passage should also apply to every woman, not only to Eve or Mary.
The continuing context says that she shall be preserved through childbearing. In other words, this is her sphere of ministry. God uses her in bringing forth life, and not only in bringing forth life, but in bringing children up in faith, love, holiness, and self-control.
My own feeling is that the “they” who continue in faith, love, holiness, and self-control are the children.
This is a ministry of women. Godly women, women used by God, have a special area of ministry: not only bearing children, but bringing them up in faith, love, holiness, and self-control. In doing this, they fulfill their ministry.
Who can deny that in bringing up children in the family, a woman plays a much larger role than a man? A man may manage the family, but a woman gives the atmosphere of life to the family. Usually, in bringing up children in faith and love, the woman plays a larger role.
Do not try to go outside the realm in which God has especially equipped you. Do not try to teach with authority or take the leading part God has given to men. Rather, seek to do that for which God has equipped you in ways that men may not be equipped.
If you are faithful in that, that is your salvation. This is the way I understand it. I leave it with you.
We have all grasped something this morning a little more clearly. But it is good to underline this: we cannot simply take these things and transfer them to our own situation as a rule, regulation, or law.
As the Lord quickens these matters to our hearts, we must go back before Him and see His living way. We cannot simply copy one another. We cannot say, “Stephen said it; therefore, we will do it here and now.”
Rather, we need to ask, “Lord, would You bring this into our fellowship in a living way, according to Your plan and Your path?”
Please do not rush away from the tables as soon as you finish today. Before we leave for the tables, we need to arrange transportation, whether you are going to the park or returning home. Please remain seated for a while until the announcements have been given.
Maybe Jack would give thanks for us at this time. Then we can go straight down and be seated as soon as possible.